ICTIO - Dicas dos colegas.....

[Robson Sandrini]

Aqui tem mais algumas referências num post do Wombat na UR: [O outro post ficou na página de trás]

Originally Posted by Wombat

OK I'm a no garlic for marine fish person.

Why?

Well firstly let me give you a little background on where I’m coming from, I’m a fish disease research scientist and I specialize in fish vaccination and ectoparasite infections in fish. I don't work for, sell or am I in anyway assciated with commerical fish food production. My research laboratory has carried out many trials for fish feed manufactures on garlic, both as an appetite stimulator, immunostimulant and white spot “cure” and I shall link to some of this work published on UR and in the scientific literature.

So why not use garlic in marine fish diets.

1 Long term heart and liver lesions

Terrestrial plant lipids are well known to cause heart and liver lesions in marine fish. The problem with feeding terrestrial plant oils (not just garlic but any terrestrial plant oil) to reef fish is problematic due the nature of the lipids the fish do not possess the enzymes to digest them correctly and this leads to fatty deposits and serious pathological changes in the heart and liver of fish that are fed these lipids. Although these are not instantly fatal they cause chronic change to these organs and long term deterioration in the health of the fish. Granted much of this his work is done on farmed fish, but it is a well known phenomena and here are some of the research papers that detail this problem.

AH, Sargent JR, Thompson KD 1993
Terrestrial and fish oils affect phospholipid fatty acid composition, development of cardiac lesions, phospholipase activity and eicosanoid production in Atlantic salmon (Salmo salar).
Prostaglandins Leukot Essent Fatty Acids. 49(3):665-73

AH, Park MT, Sargent JR.1991.
High dietary linoleic acid affects the fatty acid compositions of individual phospholipids from tissues of Atlantic salmon (Salmo salar): association with stress susceptibility and cardiac lesion.
J Nutr. 121(8):1163-72

J. Gordon Bell2, John McEvoy3, Douglas R. Tocher, Fiona McGhee, Patrick J. Campbell* and John R. Sargent 2004
Replacement of Fish Oil with Rapeseed Oil in Diets of Atlantic Salmon (Salmo salar) Affects Tissue Lipid Compositions and Hepatocyte Fatty Acid Metabolism
The American Society for Nutritional Sciences

J.G. Bell1, D.R. Tocher1, B.M. Farndale1, A.H. McVicar2 and J.R. Sargent1 1999
Effects of essential fatty acid-deficient diets on growth, mortality, tissue histopathology and fatty acid compositions in juvenile turbot (Scophthalmus maximus)
Journal Fish Physiology and Biochemistry 1573-5168 Volume 20, Number 3 p263-277

SL Seierstad, TT Poppe, EO Koppang, A Svindland, G 2005
Influence of dietary lipid composition on cardiac pathology in farmed Atlantic salmon, Salmo salar L
Journal of Fish Diseases.

These scientific journals detail the pathology and chronic changes due to these lipids (there are many more) but there aren’t any on reef fish, mainly as they are not a major farmed species or laboratory model, however if you apply the precautionary principal to your fish (in the same way it is applied to Humans) then you wouldn’t feed your marine fish diets containing terrestrial lipids. This has a human health comparison with Trans fats, very useful in making vegetable oils butter like so common in vegetable spreads and thought to be harmless until it turns out they cause liver tumors & heart disease in rats and mice and probably in humans too. So if this evidence is good enough to ban trans fats in foods then the much stronger data in fish should be good enough to ensure you don’t feed terrestrial oils to reef fish. As I said earlier my lab (which is a fish health research lab at a leading University) is often asked to carry out feed trials for feed manufactures and we have carried out many that use garlic or garlic extracts. Unfortunately these are considered to be commercially sensitive and I cannot tell you the results of using them to control white spot (but suffice to say the companies we have carried out scientific trials have all decided not to launched garlic supplemented feeds). However I did persuade one feed manufacturer to allow me to post the growth data from their feed trial on UR. The results were, well, damning for garlic. Here is the link to the trial from my lab in this thread
http://www.ultimatereef.net/forums/s...d.php?t=230961

Why do manufactures put it in their food? well clearly there is a demand for it and they are supplying that market demanded. It doesn’t mean it good for your fish it just means that they will sell more of their food if people are misinformed and think it is beneficial

2 Garlic’s Anti-parasitic Properties

The first question I have is please show me a research paper with proper controls where garlic has been shown to cure parasitic diseases in fish. I’ve just visited web of Science (a major research database) and there are no research papers that do this.

Much of the anti parasitic effects of garlic are attributed to Allacin and most work is done in humans, where it may have some benefits if purified allacin is fed, at around 400mg kg/bw every day. However in many mammals, (dogs, cats, horses etc) garlic causes a Heinz body anemia which is potentially fatal.

My laboratory has recently carried out a trial using purified allacin in clown fish

I recently picked up a MAEFS grant to look at this and the preliminary results are as follows The experiment was as follows

90 clown fish 40 on allicin, 40 not, 10 time zero samples. 10 sampled per week per group. The dose of allacin is 400ug/kg bw (a level used in humans and about 400ng/fish)

week 0 mean both groups 41.7% Hcrt
week 1 test 34.7% Hcrt control 42.4% Hcrt
week 2 test 18.8% Hcrt Controls 41.% Hcrt
week 3 test 17.2% Hcrt Controls 42.8% Hcrt
week 4 test 17.0% Hcrt Controls 40.6% Hcrt

Hcrt= haematocrit (how many red cells there are in the blood). The histology results on the organs hasn't been processed yet

Clearly allacin causes acute Heinz body anemia in reef fish too

To assume that all fish can eat garlic with no ill effects seems optimistic, when in mammals (which as a group are far more closely related to each other that fish are) it is fine for some e.g. the great apes, but toxic for dogs and cats (see O. Yamato, E. Kasai, T. Katsura, S. Takahashi, T. Shiota, M. Tajima, M. Yamasaki, and Y. Maede Heinz Body Hemolytic Anemia With Eccentrocytosis From Ingestion of Chinese Chive (Allium tuberosum) and Garlic (Allium sativum) in a Dog J. Am. Anim. Hosp. Assoc., January 1, 2005; 41(1): 68 - 73. (which is just one of 100's of research articles on this in the field))

Each year veterinarians have to treat 100's of cats and dogs for acute anaemia in the UK due to their owners feeding garlic to them. Simply because they read on a web it does wonders for their immune system, is anti worms etc. Yet these potentially fatal supplements are still widely available in the US/UK

http://www.pet-points.com/product_in...roducts_id=557
http://www.mysimon.com/9015-10992_8-29572306.html

3 Well Garlic must be an immunostimulant

In the most recent review if immunostimulants in marine fish

Ian Bricknell & Roy A. Dalmo 2005
The use of immunostimulants in fish larval aquaculture
Fish & Shellfish Immunology 19 (5) 457-472

Garlic is not referred to as an immunostimulant.

To be honest garlic has been discussed many time on UR, if you want to feed your fish garlic then nothing is stopping you, but I doubt you will see a benefit and the evidence strongly suggests you will do short and long term harm to them

[Felipe]

Hoje acaba de morrer meu último peixe. Tive seis baixas, 3 palhaços sendo um deles um black, 1 royal gramma e 2 goobies. Só me restou minha equipe de limpeza, meus 3 zoanthus, 1 smerald green, 1 mush green hairy e um green star polipo. Sinceramente não estou com muitas condiçoes de manter um marinho, pois não tenho todos os equipamentos (aquario quarentena/hospital), sistema de regrigeração (chiler de preferencia), dentre outros. Estou pensando portanto em dar um tempo em aquarismo e só voltar ao hobbie quando tiver a condição necessaria para mantê-ló. Mas ainda não estou certo. Vou estudar o assunto.

[Andre Biaggio]

E sobre a hipossalinidade em 1010 - 1009? Alguém já fez isso em FO ou aqua hospital?
Já li que uv para ictio é como enxugar gelo, mas eu liguei o meu mesmo assim, tô adicionando alho na comida, pois sou pescador e de uma coisa eu garanto pela experiência:
Isca para peixe com odor forte como o alho atrai bem mais os peixes, então no aquário deve estimular o apetite e os peixes comem mais, aumentando consumo de vitaminas e proteínas.

Meu problema é um hepatus de 4 cm que introduzi no aquário. Entrou bem saudável de um aquário de um amigo, mas agora esta com ictio. Descobri que minha linda donzela crisurus tambem estava com ício através de um amigo lojista que bateu o olho, detectou e tirou do aquário. Transferi ela pra um Aqua hospital de 50L que tenho já bem ciclado. Ela é meio agitada e isso pode ter ajudado muito a estressar o hepatus e facilitado a contaminação.

O hepatus vai ficar no aquário principal, pois se entoca nas pedras.
Ambos estão comendo bem.
No aquário hospital, estou diminuindo a salinidade para 1 ponto ao dia até chegar a 1010 ( lá só esta a donzela que infelizmente não voltara mais para o aquário principal mesmo que fique boa - até o purple fire Fish que era tímido esta dando mais as caras depois que a donzela saiu)

[Alex Correa]

Biaggio,
Por favor não perca seu tempo.
Nada ainda foi comprovado cientificamente em relação ao uso do alho na alimentação afim de prevenção/cura de parasitismo em peixes marinhos, e portanto não estará lhe ajudando.
Se o aquário não contém invertebrados por favor trate-o com o devido remédio disponível no mercado local. Leia a bula.
Copersafe é o remédio que utilizo normalmente e provavelmente você o encontre no Brasil.
Se houver invertebrados, por favor retire os peixes e trate-os imediatamente, separadamente, com o devido remédio, seguindo a bula. Tratamento individual irá lhe dar maiores possibilidades na taxa de cura/sobrevivência dos animais.
Seu aquário com invertebrados não pode ser tratado com remédios e deve estar sem peixes por 60 dias para que não haja risco de reinfestação.
Por favor mantenha a "salinidade" entre 1.023 - 1.025.
Continue tendo certeza de que seus peixes estejam sendo devidamente alimentados.
Mantenha o aquário hospital limpo.
Infelizmente não tenho tempo de participar dos fórums atualmente e estou respondendo esta mensagem porque recebi email sobre ela.
Boa sorte!
Aloha,
Alex Correa.

[Andre Biaggio]

Olá Alex, obrigado pela sua resposta, copersafe é a base de cobre né? Por aqui não achei na net, mas acredito que tenha algum similar.
Tenho anemona e corai no aqua principal inviabilizando uso de medicamentos parecidos, mas usarei no aqua hospital com a donzela. Para tirar a doris do aquario principal só se desmontar ele inteiro o que seria um desastre e acredito que todos estressariam muito, então ela vai ficar lá até que eu consiga retira-la sem alterar o display.
Estou alimentando os peixes umas 4 a 5 vezes ao dia e minha preocupação está em aumentar os nitratos , mas se eu ficar fazendo tpa mais que 1 vez na semana pode tambem estressar os peixes e piorar o ictio. Nada fácil isso!
Quem mandou o e-mail pra você? O pessoal tá eficiente, :)
Valeu pela preocupação mais uma vez, abraço!

[Andre Biaggio]

Caso não melhore com os tratamentos supracitados e o peixe diminuir sua alimentação, estou pensando em usar o verde de malaquita com sulfaniamida produzido pela Atlantys. Depois eu posto a bula deles.

[Andre Biaggio]

Aí vai a bula para tratamento de ictio:

[Andre Biaggio]

Verso da bula: